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ply; so that there was an end of the matter, as it would be improper to interfere with a patent office against the will of the existing proprietor, and cruel and unjust to do so with reference to so eminent a judge as sir W. Grant. In the propriety of this observation the House, and he believed sir John Leach, acquiesced; and that was a circumstance which the learned lord ought to have mentioned. The bill now in progress created a new court and new judge. He was not prepared to say, that they might not be necessary, in conjunction with the other measures in contemplation. But he was not prepared to agree to the creation of a new court and a new judge, until he should have a clear understanding of the measures by which that proposition was to be followed. If he were asked, what he proposed to do, he would answer, that he should be very sorry to contribute to the destruction of this bill but he could see no reason why it might not be postponed. He would only propose such a postponement as might enable the learned lord to embody, in the shape of other bills, the other great measures which he had in contemplation. With that view, he would move, that the bill be read a third time on that day fortnight.

Lord Redesdale said, he should prefer rendering the equitable jurisdiction of the court of Exchequer more efficacious, to the creation of another judge in the court of Chancery. In his opinion, if the priucipal judge in the court of Exchequer were made an Equity judge, if another judge were added to that court, and the court made a Common-law court, it would tend more to expedite the progress of justice than the measure now proposed. He earnestly hoped that the learned lord would withdraw the bill; for it was one which required much more consideration than it had had.

Lord Tenterden said, he had no objection to the principle of the bill, or to the creation of a new judge. The immense increase of legal business, consequent on a similar increase in the business of the country, rendered such a measure advisable. But he strongly deprecated any reduction of the equitable jurisdiction of the court of Exchequer-a jurisdiction which, in his opinion, ought rather to be strengthened and augmented.

The amendment was negatived, and the bill read a third time.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Thursday, May 21.

Mr.

ST. JAMES'S VESTRY BILL.] Hobhouse moved the third reading of this bill, Upon which, Mr. W. Ponsonby moved, by way of amendment, that it be read a third time upon this day three months. The amendment was seconded by sir Scrope Morland,

Mr. Denison was surprised at the opposition which was now made to the bill, as in the committee there was a majority in its favour of fourteen to one. The principle of the bill was one which he considered the House bound to support. The question was, whether the parish of St. James was to be governed by a vestry selected by the parishioners, or by a selfelected body, who were to dispose of the parish funds as they might think proper.

Mr. Estcourt opposed the measure, because it was introduced in a different shape to that agreed to by the committee. The object of the bill was, to effect a different management in the affairs of the parish to that by which it had been governed for many years past, and it necessarily involved these three points: first, whether there was any necessity for making any alteration in that management; secondly, whether, if any was necessary, the mode suggested by this bill was the proper one; and thirdly, whether this was the proper time for introducing the change. Now, as to the management of the parish affairs, he admitted they had been so conducted as to be open to some censure, but he denied that the mismanagement had been to an extent which required the interference of the House. The time chosen for bringing in this bill he considered objectionable, as a committee was sitting to inquire into the whole system of select vestries. The bill was, in truth, flying in the face of that committee, and he saw many reasons for opposing its further progress.

Sir R. Wilson expressed a hope that the House would not negative a bill which had been so anxiously wished for by the inhabitants of St. James's. Fourteen out of fifteen of the committee had voted in favour of the bill; and the opposition to it, if any, ought to have been made at an earlier period.

Mr. Hobhouse trusted that the House would not now, at the eleventh hour, stop short in doing this act of justice to the

inhabitants of St. James's, who appealed to them as to the propriety of allowing a self-elected body, who had at their disposal a sum of 63,0001. a-year, to be the auditors of their own accounts, and to be accountable only to themselves. If there existed no other argument against such a course of proceeding, one might be found in the conduct of the opponents of the bill. The hon. mover and seconder of the amendment were both select vestry-men in that parish; and though he felt perfectly convinced that they were incapable of any unfairness, yet it was the natural tendency of such a system to lead to mismanagement and irregularity. The hon. member for Oxford, though he opposed the bill, admitted that mismanagement existed in the vestry. How were the parishioners to be secured against the continuance of that mismanagement? They had been told, that the vestry was composed of men of the first respectability. This he did not pretend to deny; but let not the House be led away by that fact. He would mention one or two facts, and then leave the House to consider whether the present system ought to be continued. Lord Hardwicke was a select vestry-man, but during the last ten years that respectable nobleman had not attended the auditing of the accounts. There was another nobleman, earl Spencer, who had not attended the auditing of the accounts during the last ten years. Every means had been used to conciliate the opponents of the bill, but they refused to listen to terms; declaring their decided hostility to the principle of the bill. He hoped the House would consider the great expense to which individuals had been put in introducing this bill. When he, on former occasions, introduced individual cases, he was called upon to bring forward some remedy, and now that he brought forward such a measure, it was opposed. He regretted that his hon. colleague was prevented, by illness, from attending to give his support to the bill.

Mr. Byng said, that had he been left to himself, he would have gone on as he had done for the last thirty years; but when he found the majority of the parish of a different opinion, he could not help putting this question to himself, " Ought any body of men who have the expenditure of the parish to be allowed to audit their own accounts?" He felt that they ought not; and he should be acting contrary to the

principles by which he had been guided during his whole life if he did not give his support to the bill.

The House divided: For the original Motion 61; Against it 83; Majority in favour of the Amendment 22. The bill was consequently lost.

MR. O'CONNELL-NEW WRIT FOR CLARE.] The Solicitor-general moved the order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate on this question. He said, it would be in the recollection of the House, that when this subject was last under the consideration of the House, doubts existed whether the Resolution he had proposed ought not to have reference at once to the provisions of the recently-enacted Statute. With a view to meet those doubts, he would now withdraw his Motion, and move, "That Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, to make out (subject to the provisions of an Act passed in this Session of Parliament, intituled, An Act to amend certain Acts of the Parliament of Ireland relative to the election of Members to serve in Parliament, and to regulate the qualification of persons to vote at the election of Knights of the Shire in Ireland,') a new Writ for the electing of a Knight of the Shire to serve in this present Parliament for the County of Clare, in the room of Daniel O'Connell, esq., who, having been returned a Member of this House before the commencement of an Act passed in this Session of Parliament for the relief of his Majesty's Roman Catholic Subjects,' has refused to qualify himself to sit and vote as a Member of this House, by taking the Oath of Supremacy."

Mr. Spring Rice said, that in pursuance of the notice he had given, he rose for the purpose of moving an amendment, both to what was now proposed, and to the proposition that had been formerly made. Before he went into his argument, he wished to state, that the motion he was about to make was wholly unconnected with the individual whose name mentioned in it. It neither proceeded from the suggestion of that individual, nor had there been regarding it any communication on his own part, or on the part of any individual he was connected with; and at that moment he did not know what were the feelings and wishes of Mr. O'Connell on the subject. He

was

of amending that particular clause of the
bill which applied to Roman Catholic
members of parliament; who had been
elected before that bill was brought
in-a clause which applied specifically,
though not in terms, to Mr. O'Connell.
On that occasion he (Mr. Rice) stated,
on the part of Mr. O'Connell, that he
did not wish any question personal
to himself to be introduced on the
passing of that bill, which might be cal-
culated to arrest the progress of that
measure. He believed he had said, that
on that occasion he spoke for another,
and expressed no opinion on his own
behalf; and as that was a point which
might be mistaken, he would repeat what
a right hon. friend of his, a member of the
king's government, had said to him on
that occasion. That right hon. gentleman
spoke to him on that occasion, and ob-
served with what caution he had made the
communication, and had abstained from
making any remark whatever; and if
Mr. O'Connell was at that time ape-
titioner at that bar, seeking relief from the
operation of that bill, the declaration he
had made might be stated in bar of his
request. But it was not, he would repeat,
only Mr. O'Connell who was concerned
in the present proposition-it was a ques-
tion that related to the peace of Ireland;
and no act of Mr. O'Connell, nor of any
other man, ought to distract that House
from the real issue before them which
was, that it was their duty to do that which
would convey to the community at large
the greatest sum of good. To that issue
he would proceed to apply his observa-
tions; and he now came to consider the
proposition of the learned gentleman.
It was on Tuesday last that, after a pro-
tracted debate, an Order was made for
the attendance of Mr. O'Connell on the
day following. He attended, and the
Speaker then read to him the Resolution
of the House. They had no right to say
that Mr. O'Connell had any notice of
that resolution until it was read to him?
for he was not in official possession of that
decision of the parliament until four
o'clock; and what ensued afterwards;
the Solicitor-general moved, that a new
writ should issue for Clare; in other words,
that Mr. O'Connell, who had been de-

need only further say, that it was a motion as it then stood, suggested the propriety unconnected with any species of party feeling. The events which characterised the application to that House--the manner in which that application had been treated; namely, as a purely judicial case-the events which had recently occurred, shewed that it was not to be considered as a measure of party. On the contrary, he was ready to admit, that whilst he was discharging this duty, he felt that it was strictly a personal duty; and, in the same manner, that he was strictly responsible for it. There was no individual in that House more ready to express, as an Irishman, the obligations he owed the government for the measure they had lately carried through parliament. It was not therefore in hostility to them, but, as he had before stated, with reference to the tranquillity of Ireland, and with reference to the due execution of the law which had been passed, that he made the motion. It was not necessary for the purposes of the argument that he should go into the Relief bill. He admitted, for the sake of the argument, that the effect of that bill must be taken for granted. He would not question the decision of a majority of that House that, under the provisions of the law, Mr. O'Connell having refused to take the Oaths, was ineligible to sit as a member there. The question he should raise was founded on that proposition; and he trusted that when honourable members came to consider the case, they would find that, although they were right in affirming, as they had done, under a given state of the law, that Mr. O'Connell was not entitled to a seat, they might be disposed to say, that the state of the law called for redress. That was his measure, and to that measure he hoped for their assent. He should not have brought forward this motion at all, but for the motion of the learned gentleman. What he should recommend was not, he admitted, goods per se, but it was a measure better, on grounds of public expediency, than the motion made by the learned gentleman. Before he applied himself to this question, he would refer to an occurrence which took place in the committee on the Relief bill, to which reference had been made. Honourable gentlemen would recollect that, in the committee on that bill, theclared duly elected, should cease to be a hon. member for Dublin, seeing what would be the consequence of the bill

member of that. House, and that there should be a new election. He could not

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but complain of the breathless haste which was the case in this instance? Mr. the Solicitor-general had manifested. If O'Connell might have been permitted he wished for evidence of that, he might to exercise his discretion whether he refer to what had taken place that night would or not accept the Chiltern Huna matter unexampled in a deliberative dreds; but no such opportunity was assembly, and with reference to a severe afforded him. For the first time, at four determination—namely, that the measure o'clock in the afternoon, he heard that the which he, as the organ of government, House had decided against his right to proposed, on a resumed discussion, was take his seat; and at five minutes after not, in his own view of the matter, fit to four o'clock, a new writ was moved for. be adopted without alteration. With re- It had been said, that the suspension of gard to what that proposition had been, the issuing of a new writ was open to there had been many misrepresentations many objections; that it was the first neout of doors. There were gentlemen who cessity and duty of the House to fill up considered that, as a matter of course, the vacancy that had occurred. To those the refusal of Mr. O'Connell to take the who felt the weight of that duty the prooaths occasioned a vacancy, and that a position he should make was open to no new writ must of course be granted. objection. He proposed that they should The Solicitor-general, however, would take the obviously simple mode of getting not contend for that proposition; he ad- over the difficulty, by admitting the indimitted that it was different from the case vidual who had been returned. He saw of one who had sat and voted, in which no great force in the argument as to filling case the seat would be at once vacated, up the number of members in that House, and a new writ must issue. If what was unless the electors of Clare applied to now proposed was to be justified at all, that House, and said they were unrepreit was to be justified solely by the will and sented, and called on that House to issue pleasure of that House; for certainly there a new writ for a new election. But they was no statute which called on them to had done no such thing; and, if he misadopt it. The House had the power to took not, the electors of Clare had been act upon it; but to do so or not to do so accustomed to be unrepresented. was completely within their own province. the doctrine of the fulness of the House The Solicitor-general, in making that rendered a new writ necessary, it was proposition, had not stated one argument competent to a majority of that House to vin recommendation of it; and it stood enforce obedience to that necessity. before them as a naked proposition, put But such a necessity had not always been from the Chair, on the motion of an hon. observed and obeyed. On one occasion a member. It was founded simply on the gentleman, who had been appointed to a precedent afforded by the case of Mr. high office in the colonies, represented that Archdale. He admitted that it was the right county [no, no] but, if he was wrong in of that House, under the circumstances of that instance, the county was represented that case to direct the issue of a new writ; by a right hon. friend of his, who, during but the Solicitor-general had not said that the same period, was an ambassador at it was imperative on them to do so. It the Court of Stockholm. If, by a call of was matter of expediency; and being the House, the absence of the hon. member matter of expediency, it was for that for Clare had been brought before them, it House to judge whether it was advisable would have been their duty to notice it; to adopt the course now recommended. if there had been a complaint made by He said, that the case of Mr.Archdale was his constituents, then also it might fairly the only one applicable to the present have been brought forward; but he (Mr. subject. The cases of sir H. Monson and Spring Rice) objected to the proposition of of lord Fanshaw, were entirely within a the Solicitor-general, because, under the different principle. He admitted that the circumstances, it would, in point of fact, proceeding might be justified as to their bring the House into contact with a single power to adopt it. The only question individual, and compel them to run the was as to its policy and expediency. risk of making Mr. O'Connell a political He could wish that the measure rested martyr, and of again plunging Ireland solely on the declaration of the House, into discord and distraction. Who was that Mr. O'Connell could not take his the hon. gentleman, he would ask, whom seat without taking the oaths. What they had to deal with? That was a ques

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tion which Mr. O'Connell himself asked his battles, and by whose instrumentality the House, in that address which had pro- the Catholics succeeded. He would take duced so deep an impression upon them. the liberty, on behalf of the friends of the That hon. gentleman inquired, what was Relief bill, to claim that the revival of the House disposed to do with him? He agitation should not be ascribed to the would not repeat that question; but he failure of that measure, but to this forced would ask, who was Mr. O'Connell? How election in the county of Clare. Very were they called on to deal with him? different would be the result, if that elecWas he a single individual, not connected tion, instead of being forced on the coun with the sympathy of the majority of the ty by the House, were brought on by a religious community to which he belong- vacancy created by an act of Mr. O'Con ed? Was it merely the freeholders of the nell himself. The bill which he should county of Clare that were interested in him ask leave to introduce, would consist of a as a representative? That House would single clause, enacting that "the Oath to shew itself to be in a state of ignorance if be, in all cases, taken at the table of the it supposed, in fact, such to be the case. House by Roman Catholic members, shall Mr. O'Connell, it was true, was the repre- be the oath provided in the Relief bill sentative of the county of Clare; but he and no other." It was said by many honwas viewed as the representative of the ourable gentlemen, that they did not befeeling, sympathies, and interests, of the lieve it was intended by the Relief bill to whole Catholic people of Ireland, who as exclude Mr. O'Connell. This opinion one man would feel whatever affected him was repeated on great authority; and if it individually. The right hon. gentleman, were half as general in his own country, he perceived, dissented from what he was he would not propose the bill he wished saying; but he would ask, whether there to introduce. But the people there were was an Irishman in the House that did not so credulous or ingenuous as his hon. not know that this question was a question friend, the member for Kirkcudbright, of the greatest importance, and that from who believed that it was a matter of accithe highest to the lowest there was not dent by which Mr. O'Connell was excluone single Roman Catholic in Ireland who ded; for the enactment applied to this did not feel as deep an interest in it as any case, and to this case alone. He called constituent of Mr. O'Connell ? The on those who were disposed to vote against House had heard much of the agitation him to shew one inconvenience or suggest which had prevailed in Ireland. He enHe en- one danger which could arise from the adtreated the House seriously to consider, mission of Mr. O'Connell into that House. whether the step they were now called He had shown what, in all probability, upon to take had not a direct tendency the result of a new election would be. He to re-produce that very result which every did not like to hear honourable gentlemen good man wished to avoid. They had support the proposition of the Solicitorpassed three bills in the course of the pre- general on the ground of upholding the digsent session, to which more importance nity of the House; for that was a pretext was attached than to any measure that used when all other reasons failed. A ever was before the House. But if they right hon. gentleman had referred to what agreed to issue a new writ for the county had occurred in another place, when an of Clare, they would undo all the advan- amendment was moved to the Relief Bill, tages they had conferred. By forcing on to make it more directly applicable to the a new election in the county of Clare, they case of Mr. O'Connell. That proposition would raise the very scaffolding which came from a quarter entitled to the highthey had taken so much pains to destroy. est possible respect; but he called on the Instead of the Association, there would be House to listen to the answer which was a committee sitting in Dublin for the re- returned by a learned lord, high in his turn of Mr. O'Connell; and in that course majesty's councils: "I would ask your they would be justified by the vote that lordships whether, in a measure of such House was asked to pass that evening. immense importance, it would be advisable He said again, the Catholics of Ireland for your lordships to descend from the would be justified; for if any of them was high station in which the legislature should indifferent to the return of Mr. O'Connell stand, to make the aet turn against one that individual could have no true feeling single individual?" That was a justificaof gratitude to the man who had fought tion of his motion. He appealed to any

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