the country, it was impossible not to allude to the 75,000 men which we were bound to keep up on the continent of Europe in a time of peace. He was astonished how such an idea could ever enter the head of any person in this country, as that of soliciting the princes of Europe to receive subsidies for the purpose of aggrandizing and raising up certain powers of Europe to such a magnitude, that no hope would be left for the preservation of any independent state. The object of this expenditure was to destroy every vestige of independent power on the continent. He could never consent to the wringing from the pockets of the peasantry of this country, sums to be thus expended in the accomplishment of objects of a nature not less detestable than that for which the tyrant under which Europe had so long suffered, was at length driven from his throne. It was impossible to consider this keeping up of 75,000 men on the continent in any other light than a subsidizing of a few of the powers of Europe, to destroy every vestige of free dom there. The country was now also carrying on a war of conquest at half the distance of the globe from us. When America had not half its present population, its subjugation was found to be an effort beyond the power of this country to effect. Yet with all our past experience, this, it appeared, was an effort which we were at present seeking. The war was now no longer carried on for those objects which had been stated to parliament, but for purposes which it was the absolute duty of parliament, before they gave them their support, to sift to the bottom. He had stated to their lordships his opinion, that from the moment the American government were apprized of the repeal of the orders in council, the war was just on the part of this country, and he had always therefore continued to give it his feeble support. He had done so because he considered, on the faith of the declaration from the throne, that we were at war for the maintenance of our maritime rightsan object for which he would shed the last drop of his blood. But they now found that when ministers were declaiming against aggrandizement, and when there was but one general voice of approbation in parliament in consequence of such disclaimer of conquest or aggrandizement, and of the moderate and pacific councils which were entertained by the govern ment of this country-that at that very moment they were making on America such demands as could have no other effect but to unite against them the voice of every individual in that country, and of every independent man in every independent country in the world; demands which were not justified by any conquests, of cessions of territory, and the effect of which could only be to retard the peace, and to unite that country against us, on whose disunion rested our best hopes of continuing the war with success. We had so unhappily chosen the subjects of these demands, as, in the first place, to irritate the feelings of every individual throughout the country; and, in the second place, to inflict a punishment, not on those who gave us cause of complaint, but those who had shewn some disposition of amity to this country. We had demanded from them the establishment of a barrier of an independent Indian country between Canada and the United States. Were they studiously to labour to devise a topic calculated to excite universal irritation against us, and to carry terror and alarm home to every cottage of the United States, they could have hit on nothing more successful than the establishment of an independent Indian territory; and that neither the United States nor Great Britain should have power to purchase, but that any other state might. Was it meant by this that France should have a power to make purchase there? Or was it meant to place Spain in that situation? That independent country, as it was called, would be a mere refuge for outlaws and robbers, and would be productive of as much inconvenience to Canada as to the United States. The next demand was to give us a complete command of the waters. There was also a water barrier between us and France; and how would it be received if the command of this water barrier were asked to be given to this country? This power was neither more nor less than the power of making an irruption into other countries at pleasure. But all this was not enough, unless we sought also out the state most friendly to us, and required from them, as the reward of their friendly dispositions, the cession of part of their territories. Could there be found a man out of the circle of those who made these propositions, who for a moment would doubt as to the effect which they must necessarily have produced? But all this was not sufficient, unless we also touched on the string of the fisheries, a subject in which the interests of this country were not concerned, and the stating of which could only have the effect of uniting against us every remnant of the American population. Such were the propositions which had been made on the part of this government, and which had completely changed the nature of the war. He had considered America as the aggressor, at the period when war was declared. But those propositions argued such impolicy, were so inexpedient, and so contrary to every thing like the true interests of Great Britain, that he should consider himself as grossly neglecting his duty if he allowed parliament to adjourn without declaring, that the publication by America of those documents had, in his mind, totally changed the nature of the war; and that until those documents were contradicted, or the grounds taken up by us were abandoned, it was impossible for him any longer to give his support to a war which was not carried on for our maritime rights, but for purposes of conquest and aggrandizement. On all these grounds, he gave his decided opposition to the motion for adjournment. be properly discussed, whilst, at the present time, no advantage whatever could arise from debating them. It was undoubtedly true, that upon those questions the opinion of parliament ought at some time to be pronounced; but it was equally true, that the present was not that time. The same reasoning applied to the topics alluded to by the noble baron regarding our internal situation, as that could only be properly regulated when the position of our external relations was distinctly and definitely ascertained. Thus, with regard to the agriculture of the country, he agreed with the noble lord, that a decision ought to be come to one way or the other; but it could not be arrived at without much deliberation, as applying to other considerations that could not now be brought into view. With respect to the currency of the country, he was satisfied, however, on this head, not only that it would be found that the measures relative to this subject had not produced any injurious effect, or any depreciation, as alleged by the noble lord; not only that they had produced no injury to any one, but that they had been the means of bringing us through the great contest with triumphant success, and had worked the salvaThe Earl of Liverpool said, he felt that tion of the country. He admitted that a the speech of the noble lord called for measure of this nature was only one of some observation, and he was most anxious necessity, and in the first resort to it, it to notice the several topics to which the might well appal the minds of men who noble lord had alluded; but he felt at looked to its consequences; but he conthe same time, that consistently with his tended, that nothing more strongly evinced public duty, he could not, upon some of the firmness and magnanimity of the great these topics, enter into any detail. As statesman who first adopted the restricto the adjournment, there was nothing in tion upon cash payments at the Bank, it unusual, and noble lords must be than his incurring all the risk, and all the aware that it had not been the practice to odium attendant upon such a measure, assemble parliament until late in January; from the conviction in his own breast so that, in fact, the recess now moved for, that it would (as turned out to be the case) went but very little beyond the usual pe- powerfully contribute to the salvation of riod of the meeting of parliament. As to the country. The noble baron, with any motives of personal convenience, he others, had originally agreed to the adoption should have been ashamed to have moved of this measure; and he (lord Liverpool) an adjournment upon any such ground. contended, admitting that it was only a The fact was, that it was for general con- measure of necessity, still that a discussion venience, and for the public advantage, upon the subject could not be opened with that discussions upon questions of import any advantage until the external relations ance should take place at a period when of the country were definitively arranged. there was the fullest attendance in parlia. With regard to the finances of the counment. There were other reasons, how-try, he felt, as it was his peculiar duty to ever, at the present moment, which ope- feel, deeply the importance of the subrated to render it useful that such an ad-ject: he felt also the necessity of economy journment should take place, because at so far as was consistent with the safety of the period when parliament again assem- the country; but it must be obvious that bied, those questions of importance to this subject could not, in its different relawhich the noble lord had alluded could tions, be advantageously discussed at the present period. As to what the noble baron had said with regard to the force maintained by us upon the continent, he felt a difficulty in replying to it on account of the pending negociations; but he would repel the charge of that force being employed in aggrandizing some powers and oppressing others; and though he could not enter into any detail upon the subject, he would say, that that force was employed for objects essentially British, for objects that had been considered British by every statesman that had ever looked to them, and for objects that were ultimately connected with the best interests of this country. With regard to the American negociation he could not answer the noble lord, without going into a detail that would be obviously improper during a pending negociation. It would be evident, however, that considerations derived from a partial publication of documents during the pendency of a negociation, could not apply to the scope or details of that negociation with any accuracy or truth. This, however, he would say, repelling the charge of the noble lord, that the war with America was not carried on for any purposes of conquest or aggrandizement; and he was satisfied, that when the time came, there would be found a complete justification of the conduct of government upon these points. The Duke of Sussex said, he was happy to find by the noble earl's concluding declara. tion, that there was no idea of aggrandizemen mingling with the councils of his Majesty's government: but as that noble lord had refused to give information to the House, it was still their duty to require it, and let their opinions stand on record to the extent of the information which they had. He remembered it to have been said in the Speech from the throne, that particular circumstances had delayed the meeting of the Congress. On looking over the treaties which had already transpired, he had found that, by that of the 30th of May, the settlements on the coast of Africa were to be delivered up within three months, and those to the east of the Cape in six. Those settlements, then, I would have been all surrendered before the assembling of Congress. Thus much was at least information which they could obtain for themselves. In going over the different treaties previous to that of Paris, he found that when Guadaloupe was given to Sweden, by the fourth additional article of the Swedish treaty it was stipulated that the slave trade should not be recommenced in that island, and an observation of the Swedish government made upon it, that there was the less difficulty in complying with that article, as the kingdom was not in the habits of that traffic. But, by the 9th article of the treaty of Paris, he found the island given up, and no stipulation against the trade. Surely this ought to have made the matter of a strict article in the latter case as in the former. He found by the same treaty, Guiana restored to France. Their lordships would remember the treaty of Amiens, and the long discussions which then took place upon the subject. He hoped that the interest which so closely united the court of Brazil to this country would suffer no injury, and that the stipulations of the treaty of Utrecht on that point would be kept in mind. With respect to Naples, he hoped we should not forget an old ally, nor suffer the same excuse of prior arrangements, as in the case of Norway, to make us coincide in, and sanction the seizure of the richest jewel of the crown of an ally. Next, as to Poland and Saxony. Poland was always dear to his recollections; he was anxious for her restoration to her rank among nations. We had at least one claim to merit and influence on this occasion; we had never, openly at least, sanctioned her partition. This had been. allowed by even our enemies. When that man who was now removed for the peace of the world, had gone into Poland, boasting that France had never given her sanction to that iniquitous act, he admitted that England too had been, of all the other nations, the freest from that imputation. He wished it were possible to recall amongst the sovereigns now assembled at Vienna, the immortal Sobieski, to remind them of the services he once rendered at the head of a Polish army in relieving that capital, and driving from the Austrian territories a Turkish invading force; for surely such a recollection would decide the question, and Poland would be rendered free and independent. As to Saxony, he hoped that no usurpation would take place there, and that the people would not be turned over to a stranger without their own consent. On these points he would not trouble the House farther. The noble earl had promised to throw additional knowledge on their discussion when they met again: but unless that noble lord's health was better than his own, he might not be enabled to meet their lord ships, and he was anxious to give his sen- | fluence of hostile or pacific relations ? timents even briefly as he did now, as he might not be enabled to offer them at any future time. The The The answer was so preposterous, that he wondered how the noble earl could have ventured it, unless, taking his example The Earl of Donoughmore begged leave from another place, he wished to imitate to recall the attention of their lordships to those who were puzzled, not by answerthe arguments of his noble friend (lording the questions put by others, but those Grenville). After a sitting of about three which were put by themselves. weeks, an adjournment for upwards of noble earl's reply might have referred to two months was moved by the first minis- something passing in his own mind, but it ter. His noble friend had stated strong had no reference whatever to what fell reasons, and three among the four were from his noble friend. As he had already really of such a nature that he wondered stated, the noble earl thought no business how any objection could be made to them worth his attention but taxation. in that House. The expedient of the moment the supplies were passed, the minister was ingenious. When supplies candles were put out, the House was abanwere to be voted, parliament could not doned to darkness, and looked more like attend to those important subjects; and an Inquisition than a House of Parliawhen the supplies were voted, parliament ment. All other Bills passed sub silentio, could not be detained; so that in either and the day in which no money was case three great objects must be postponed, voted, no business was understood to be and in no case was there any hope that done. The noble earl had said, that the they would be brought to issue. His noble present adjournment exceeded but by a friend had alluded to the agriculture little the usual adjournment at this period of the country; but the minister could of the year. But, could the noble earl mind nothing but taxation. He would state any period in which there were the not even give the people the satisfaction same reasons against adjourning? Had he, of putting them in a condition in which either in his reading or in his experience, they might be taxed with advantage; and ever marked that time when the conjuncthough his great object was to draw upon ture was so pressing as at the present them, he overlooked the protection of moment? Perhaps it was not to be rethose sources from which alone his demands garded extraordinary, that those who could be supplied. As to America, he were legislating for the whole world, deferred that question until the Congress should find it inconvenient to descend to of Vienna had done deliberating. Every humbler topics. However, as their conother topic was disposed of in the same cerns were so weighty, it appeared to him way. The minister said, wait for the to furnish an additional argument why Congress of Vienna; we must not divulge, parliament should be kept near at hand, we must not let the cat out of the bag, that they might have frequent opportuand therefore you must wait. He never nities of listening to the admonitions of knew till this night that such an argument his noble friend, that great and expewould serve for a general answer to every rienced member of parliament and diplo inquiry that could be made, and every matic man. For every reason he should subject that could be mentioned. His oppose the adjournment. When he heard noble friend had said, that the present was of the projected dismemberment of Saxony, a good time to consider the state of our and the transfer of allegiance from one -agriculture. The noble lord replied, government to another, he could not but wait for the deliberations of the Congress. wish for the wholesome interposition of His noble friend required that they should parliament. When he heard that the examine into the finance, and again ex- king of Saxony was to be dethroned, declaimed the noble earl, "O! wait for the prived of his territory and erased from the Congress-let us see what will be done calendar, he could not but wish that parthere, before we can know what we ought liament might be near, to check the proto do." But perhaps the answer meant ceedings of ministers, while they were yet more than it might seem to convey: unaccomplished. They knew enough of perhaps it implied a doubt, whether the the negociations to think that, if governCongress would finish its labours by peace ment acted with prudence and integrity, or by war; for how could its deliberations and avoided the contagion of intoxicating by possibility apply to those purely do- projects of aggrandizement, much might mestic arrangements, except by the in- yet be done; but if, instead of settling the peace of Europe on permanent foundations, they proceeded to remove the land-marks by which states were separated and distinguished and the balance of power preserved, our great military establishments would go on increasing, our expenses would continue to accumulate, and the overburthened shoulders of the ministers would collect additional pressure and additional responsibility at every step of their progress. How it might be under other circumstances he could not say; but, in the present instance, the adjournment was too long to be defended by such arguments as the noble earl had adduced in its support. The question was then put, and carried; and the House adjourned to the 9th of February. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Thursday, December 1. INSOLVENT DEBTORS ACT.] Mr. Serjeant Best, in moving for sundry papers and returns to shew the effect and tendency of the Insolvent Debtors Act, said he could not but observe, that his opinion still was most unfavourable to the principle of the Act. Nothing that he had seen, nothing that he had heard, had altered his sentiments on the subject; but certainly in any thing that he might think it right hereafter to propose, his first and general object would be to relieve and alleviate the distresses of the unfortunate. He then moved, "That there be laid before the House, 1. An account of the number of prisoners for debt in the King's-bench and Fleet prisons, on the 10th of July 1812. 2. An account of the number of prisoners for debt in the King's-bench and Fleet prisons, on the 10th of July 1813. 3. A monthly account of the number of prisoners committed to the same prisons every month, from the 1st of January 1813, to the 1st of December 1814. 4. An account of the number of prisoners discharged from the said prisons under the Act of 53 Geo. 3, c. 102. 5. An account of the number of prisoners for debt in the same prisons on the 1st of December 1814. 6. An account of the names, trades, and descriptions, of the several persons who have applied to be discharged, under the acts of parliament of the 53d and 54th years of his present Majesty's reign, for the Relief of Insolvent Debtors in England, with the amount of the debts for which they were arrested, and also the whole sums due and owing by them respectively; distinguishing such of the said debtors as have been remanded and afterwards discharged, and those who have been finally remanded." Mr. Alderman Atkins said, that without questioning the policy of the Bill, he thought it required much amendment; for he had heard of instances, where a man who owed thousands contrived to get arrested for 100l., and then, by a three months imprisonment, of course SUCceeded in getting rid of the whole. The injustice of a law which so operated, he thought must be obvious. Mr. Lockhart felt, that the Act was as yet extremely defective, and he therefore now gave notice, that soon after the recess he should move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend that Act. Mr. Horner expressed how much he regretted to learn that the hon. and learned Serjeant still remained of his original opinion, that the Act was contrary to sound policy; for he (Mr. Horner) felt assured, that the wisdom of the Act was every day becoming more and more prominent. The objection which had been made, and was making to that measure, was perfectly natural, and what every one must have expected, when it was remembered on what loose principles persons in this country, especially about the metropolis, gave credit to those who chose to become purchasers. Unless that indiscreet mode of giving credit should be altered, the Act might work individual mischief and disappointment; but as the mode of giving credit on such a principle was avowedly condemned, surely that legislative proceeding which would effect a reform in the mode of managing credit, would be a great national advantage. The very dissatisfaction which had been expressed by a numerous body of tradesmen, was a proof of the efficacy of the measure; for one of its objects had been to destroy that indiscreet credit which tradesmen were too much accustomed to give: those creditors now suffered the consequences of their own indiscretion, and imputed to the Act what was the effect of their own folly. He was convinced of the great benefits that would result from the Bill, if its leading principle should be boldly supported in that House. Mr. Serjeant Best allowed, that it might be just to punish the careless creditor; but it would be also right to protect those tradesmen who must either trust or lose their business.-The papers were ordered. |