which they were not acquainted, the rati- which he seemed to console himself, refication had not taken place; and therefore minded him of the consolation which was being an incomplete instrument, it had held out to that House some years ago, not yet been presented to parliament. when the Austrian loan was negociated. Such being the state of it, he should feel it It was then said, that if the emperor of his duty to move the previous question Germany should fail in his engagements upon the present motion. The convention (and he did fail, for we were still bearing itself arose out of the treaty of Chaumont, the burthen of that loan) he might be sued which had for its object to unite the forces in his own courts for recovery. He had of the allies, in order to subdue the over- never heard, however, that either the whelming power of Buonaparté. When Solicitor or Attorney General had gone. that object ceased, from the restoration of over to learn the German language; and the Bourbons, much still remained to be he believed the emperor had consequently done in determining the future condition never been sued. Just so they were now of the territories which were wrested from told, that if the prince of Orange should the dominion of France; and it was agreed misconduct himself, he might be deprived that each of the contracting parties should, of his honours and profit as a British notwithstanding, keep on foot a proportion officer, and be brought to this country to of that quota of force which had been answer such misconduct. But how was stipulated in the treaty of Chaumont. he to be brought? He apprehended they The troops in question were sent as part must send an armed force thither, and of our contribution towards carrying on after all, perhaps they would not catch the war, and they would have been equally him. It was really absurd and childish sent there had no treaty existed. The to talk of bringing a sovereign and indetreaty of Chaumont had been sanctioned pendent prince to an account in this by the House; and the employment of country, for any misconduct which he the troops in the Low Countries was only might commit. He, for one, most a part of the engagements entered into thoroughly disclaimed any thought of by that treaty. Independently, however, such misconduct; but they were to look of any treaty, he apprehended there was to possible circumstances. In adverting no place to which they could have been to the other parts of the right hon. gensent, more interesting or more important tleman's speech, it appeared that they than Holland and the Netherlands. The whose infirmity he had pitied on the predefence and protection of those countries ceding evening, were now as much to be had always been considered by every pitied for their ignorance. The ministers statesman as of the greatest moment, and of the crown in that House, came down to he believed that if he had had to apply, as ask money upon the faith of a treaty on probably he might have, to parliament, which they had been acting, though they for the support of a body of troops in the did not know whether it had or had not Netherlands, independent of any treaty, been ratified. The sort of excuse he had he should meet their approbation. When set up, ought not to be received by the the convention was ratified, it would of House. Lord Castlereagh had been long course be communicated to the House; enough in Vienna to have had the conor if it should happen that the allied vention ratified. The Congress met on powers, in consequence of any arrange- the 22d of September, and couriers were ments that might be made at the Congress, constantly passing to and fro. If there should think it unnecessary now to ratify was a period when the ratification might that convention, then also some explana-have been easily effected, it was the pretion would naturally be given to parliament. With regard to the illustrious individual who commanded them, he perfectly agreed with what had fallen from the hon. gentleman, as to the little probability of any misconduct on his part; but supposing such a case possible, he was certainly amenable to the laws of this country, as a British officer, and liable to lose his rank and emoluments. Mr. Whitbread said, that the last argument of the right hon. gentleman, with sent, when the ministers of all the monarchs of Europe were concentrated in a point. A right hon. gentleman (Mr. Bathurst) had last night told them, that if an army were not kept up in Belgium, they might as well have a piece of waste paper as the treaty of Paris. By the same principle, what were all other treaties, but pieces of waste paper? The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had argued, that government were acting under the treaty of Chaumont, which was intended to check the power of Buonaparté, if peace were concluded with him. But, when he was deposed, or abdicated the throne, the treaty of Chaumont, he would contend, became a nullity. If the right hon. gentleman argued, that it was as necessary to keep up an armed force now, as when the treaty of Chaumont was signed, then it was evident that nothing had been gained by the exertions of the allies, since all the parties were obliged to continue with arms in their hands to prevent the aggrandizement of France. When, he should be glad to know, would this state of things subside? When would the British troops be withdrawn? When would Holland be able to stand alone? Was the restored house of Bourbon to be considered as an enemy equally formidable with the fallen dynasty of Buonaparté? It appeared that considerable forces had been recently sent to Belgium; perhaps for wise and useful purposes, but these purposes ought to be explained. Let not the parliament of England dispense with its old established forms, but insist that the decorum due to it should be observed. He could not conclude without observing, that the armies of the different allied powers were extending themselves throughout different territories, from which it might hereafter be impossible to dislodge them. They seemed to be imitating the conduct of Buonaparté, who, at the peace of Amiens, between the signing of the preliminaries and the definitive treaty, annexed to France the several Italian states. So Austria and Prussia were now possessing themselves of different portions of territory, which they might not hereafter be disposed to surrender. Mr. Bathurst said, that in point of substance, the thing stood now exactly as it did at the conclusion of last session. The mode of doing it might, indeed, be quarrelled with by the hon. gentleman opposite. It had been stated by the noble lord, that until the different arrangements with respect to the countries conquered from France were definitively settled, it was agreed by the allied powers, that each of them should keep up a certain proportion of military force. The other powers had done this. The case itself was new and unprecedented, and the proceedings required by it were necessarily the same. By this treaty of Paris, Europe had been left in a state such as it had never been before. Belgium was, unquestionably, the place of all others, the occupation of which by British troops ought to be unattended by any jealousy. He denied having last night characterized a treaty as waste' paper. What he had said was, that a treaty was only paper, unless effect were given to it by acting upon it. For instance, we had surrendered some islands to France. Were not the French to send a force to take possession of them? The French had agreed to withdraw from Belgium, but unless the fortified places of that country were occupied, of what avail would be the agreement? Or would the hon. gentleman wish the protection of that country to be left to Russia, or Austria, or Prussia, rather than to the nation so materially interested in its fate as Great Britain? Although he thought that this was the most proper employment of the forces which this country was pledged to keep up, yet he felt no jealousy of any of the nations. He did not consider that in this arrangement there was any more jealousy shewn towards France, than towards Austria, Russia, or Prussia. It was evident that Belgium, being ceded by France to the allies, must be garrisoned by the troops of some of the coalesced powers, and he thought that no troops could more properly be employed for that purpose than our own. It had been asked, how long was this to last? He could not exactly tell, as the effects of the treaty would not be completed until the congress at Vienna had finally settled the fate of all those countries which had been recovered from the dominion of France. As to the convention itself, it could not be laid before the House until it was ratified: he had no objection, however, to the substance of it being communicated to them. As to the objection of having the British army commanded by the hereditary prince of Orange, he could not distinguish the difference between the present case and that of prince Ferdinand commanding the British army in Germany. Mr. Tierney said, that although prince Ferdinand had had the military direction of the British troops, the punishment of them was entrusted, by special commission, to the marquis of Granby alone. So it was with the duke of York, when acting under the prince of Saxe Cobourg. Now, the prince of Orange had absolute and uncontroled power, not as regarded the military operations only, but as it regarded the punishment of the British troops; a situation in which British soldiers were never before placed. He trusted this evil would be removed by giving to some officers of the British army an authority similar to that formerly enjoyed by the marquis of Granby and the duke of York. With respect to his hon. friend's motion, he could see no difficulty in making a return to it. It was for copies of any engagement that had been entered into by his Majesty with foreign powers. Now the right hon. gentleman had acknowledged that such an engagement had been made, and that it had been ratified by this country. Why not produce it? It was important to do so, because the return would necessarily be accompanied by a statement of the reasons which had occasioned his Majesty to be the only one of the contracting parties by whom the treaty had been ratified. To him it appeared to be highly indecorous for ministers to talk of the employment of British troops under a foreign power, without having put parliament in possession of any document on the subject. It was highly injurious, he believed it was unprecedented, for parliament to recognize such an application of British troops without any previous communication from the crown. It was, besides, highly desirable to know the precise engagement stated in the convention. What was the number of troops to be furnished by Great Britain? Some said 40,000, others 50,000. By a third set it was rumoured that 75,000 men was the number to be furnished; with this condition, that if a fewer number were sent, the deficiency should be supplied in money, at the rate of 281. a man. Would the House submit to be kept in ignorance of the facts? He allowed that Belgium was to us a most interesting country. But was it a sufficient answer to all inquiries to say, that our troops were employed there, without producing any details of the conditions of their service? He could not see why the treaty had not been ratified. It was curious to hear the right hon. gentleman say, that because all the secretaries of state of Europe had been assembled together, that a delay has arisen in the completion of this instrument! If their absence had occasioned confusion and blundering, that would have been perfectly intelligible; but as it was, he confessed his astonishment that the ratification had not taken place in half an hour. It was material to know if the money to be furnished by us was employed for the common interest, or for the particular objects of particular powers. Had the treaty been fully carried into effect? The right hon. gentleman said it had been acted upon. Yes, by us; but had it been acted upon by the other powers? If so, produce it, and let that fact be shown. What objection could there possibly be to let parliament have the substance of the treaty? Mr. Bathurst said, across the table, that he had stated in his speech his readiness to afford that which would be fully expla natory of the treaty in question. Mr. Tierney was not aware that the right hon. gentleman had entered into any explanation on the subject. Had he said any thing of the number of men to be furnished by this country? Mr. Bathurst replied, that he had offered to the hon. mover, before he brought for. ward his motion, to produce the substance of the convention, and he had just repeated that offer on his legs. Mr. Tierney said, that he had not understood it so; but that the declaration of the right hon. gentleman was quite sufficient. He would therefore sit down, to listen to the way in which the communication was to be made. The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that the way would be by laying before the House the substance of the convention in question. Mr. Fremantle's motion was then withdrawn. RESOLUTIONS RESPECTING PUBLIC BUSI NESS.] On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was resolved, "That in this present session of parliament, all orders of the day, set down in the order book for Mondays and Fridays, shall be disposed of before the House will proceed upon any motions, of which notices shall be entered in the order book.” RESOLUTIONS RELATING TO PRIVATE BILLS.] On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was resolved, 1. "That this House will not receive any petition for private Bills after Friday, the 25th day of this instant November. 2. That no private Bill be read the first time after Monday, the 6th of March next. 3. That this House will not receive any report of such private Bill after Monday, the 1st day of May next." MILITIA.] Lord Bridport appeared at the bar with the Report of the Address to the Prince Regent. Lord Milton, before the report was brought up, wished to put some questions to the right hon. gentleman opposite, with respect to the disembodying the militia. It had always been understood, that upon the restoration of peace, the militia regiments were to be disembodied. He wished to know upon what grounds it was, that some regiments had been disembodied, while others were still kept up. This operated with peculiar severity upon some counties, while others were exempt from the hardship. It must be recollected, that the wives and children of militia-men were supported by county-rates, or by other rates, which fell equally on the county. It, therefore, now happened, that this pressure fell exclusively on some counties, and not upon others. It was also an amazing grievance to the men themselves, who had served through so long a war, and thought the moment arrived when they might rejoin their families, to find that they were still to be kept up, as if the war had still continued. not necessary to keep the whole embodied, how were those counties, whose regiments were retained in service, injured by the other counties being relieved from the burthen? Adverting to what had fallen from the hon. colonel who had so distinguished himself in his command of a militia regiment, he readily acknowledged that nothing could be more creditable than the conduct of the regiment which that hon. gentleman commanded; and declared, that his Majesty's ministers were anxious to take the first opportunity of which their duty would permit them to avail themselves, to effect the reduction of the militia altogether. Lord Milton observed, that the preambles of the Militia Bills ran, " Whereas it is expedient, as a defence against invasion." Now, really, he did not suppose there was any apprehension of our being invaded by America. The Report of the Address was then brought up, and agreed to. In answer to a question from Mr. Tierney, respecting the Army Extraordinaries, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that he proposed to bring forward to-morrow the general account of the bills drawn on the treasury; but he apprised the right hon. gentleman that the account could only be very general, and that it was impossible, at this early period, to furnish the items or details. Colonel Gore Langton could not let this opportunity pass, of expressing his high admiration of the conduct of the officers and men of the regiment of militia which he had the honour to command, who, after twelve years service, being called again from their native country, marched with an alacrity which did them the greatest honour, to the discharge of another service. He hoped and trusted that ministers would Mr. Tierney apprehended, from what he take the earliest opportunity of convincing had just heard, that there was no probathe militia, that it was not intended to bility of knowing whether any mode could keep them embodied a moment longer be adopted of furnishing a complete acthan was possible; for the continuance of count of the military expenditures occasome of the regiments in service had ex-sioned by the war on the continent, which cited a strong sensation among them. might be taken as the winding-up of the business. Mr. Bathurst said, that with respect to the legal part of the noble lord's observations, it must be remembered, that though we were at peace with one power, we were not at peace with all; and that therefore, if the service of the country required it, government was fully justified in keeping embodied as many regiments of the militia as seemed necessary. If it were The Chancellor of the Exchequer rejoined, that he thought this would be utterly impossible. ABSTRACT OF THE NET REVENUE TO 10TH OCT. 1814.] The following Paper was presented by Mr. Charles Grant, jun. ABSTRACT ABSTRACT of the NET PRODUCE of the REVENUE, in the Quarters and Years ending 10th October 1813, and 10th October 1814:-Distinguishing the Total Produce of the CUSTOMS and EXCISE. HOUSE OF LORDS. Thursday, November 10. LORD WALSINGHAM.] The Earl of Liverpool, after a short eulogium on the long and zealous services of lord Walsingham as chairman of the committees of that House, concluded by moving an Address to the Prince Regent, humbly to represent to his Royal Highness the faithful services of lord Walsingham, as chairman of the committees of that House, and the indefatigable attention devoted by his lordship, during a period of 20 years, to the private Bills in the House, which had so essentially contributed to increase the character of the proceedings of the House, and eminently to benefit the subject; and to pray that some mark of acknowledgment might be conferred upon lord Walsingham for such services, he having, by infirmity, been compelled to retire from the situation of chairman of the committees." This Address, after a few words from the lord Chancellor and earl Fitzwilliam, expressive of their approbation of the services of lord Walsingham, was agreed to nem. dis. THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY APPOINTED CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.] The Earl of Liverpool, after a few observations, urging the fitness of the earl of Shaftesbury to fill the situation of chairman of committees, from whose ability and zealous attention already displayed in that office during a considerable part of last session, there was every reason to believe he would be eminently calculated to fulfil the duties of it, concluded by moving "That the earl of Shaftesbury be appointed chairman of the committees of that House."-Ordered; and also on the motion of the earl of Liverpool, "That the earl of Shaftesbury do take the chair in all committees of the House, and in all select committees, unless any such committee should be specially empowered to chuse their own chairman." |