paper did not comprehend all the infor- which he would not attribute to any man. mation of which it was necessary that the But certainly he had been informed, that House should be in possession. It ap- had it not been for British money, that peared by it, that sir Henry Wellesley had army would have been unable to marchpreviously issued a sum of money to the the Spanish government then existing Spanish court. It was the agreement to would not have been subverted-and the do this for which his hon. friend had unhappy Spaniards, who had fought for and moved. The dispatch of the noble lord maintained the rights of their ungrateful was dated the 30th of last July. It was monarch, would not have been sent into very extraordinary that an advance should exile and to the gallies, a memorable be made to the Spanish government so example of the base ingratitude of sovelong after the conclusion of the treaty of reigns to their people. It was a remarkParis. This would be more evident, if the able fact, that the English ambassador situation of the Spanish armies was con- was actually with general Elio and the sidered at the time that this advance had army which enabled the king of Spain to been made. There were at that time four change the government. [An expression Spanish armies embodied; three in Spain, of dissent from the treasury bench.] Was the fourth, consisting of 14 or 15,000 it not so? He had been informed that it men, serving under the duke of Welling- was. It was also rumoured that officers ton at Thoulouse. When the British go-bearing British commissions were with vernment issued money to any foreign that army. At any rate, it appeared that, power for a particular purpose, it was the by the payment of our money, we had not duty of the person through whose hands contributed to the quiet return of the the money passed, to see that it was faith-Spanish troops to their respective homes, fully applied to the object for which it was but had indirectly interfered with the inintended. This, however, was far from ternal government of Spain, and that with having been the case; as he had been in- consequences which were all but sufficient formed through those channels to which to warrant a violation, in another way, of (his Majesty's ministers refusing to open the principle which he contended ought to any other) he had been obliged to resort, be invariably preserved on that subject. namely, newspapers, gazettes, and other These circumstances demanded a fuller sources of public information, which the explanation than the paper offered by the court of Spain, in common with all other right hon. gentleman would afford; aldespotic governments, appeared willing, though he by no means accused the goif they could, utterly to extinguish; well vernment of this country, or any man in knowing that as long as a press tolerably it, of being base enough to assist in the free and well informed continued to exist commission of the atrocities which had in any country, it was impossible that the been perpetrated in Spain, and he therepeople of that country should be wholly fore thought his hon. friend bound to press broken down and subjugated. He would his motion. state what he had heard of the situation of the Spanish troops in France returning to their own country. So far were they from having been supported by the Spanish commissariat (for which pretended purpose the money was advanced by this country), that they were actually fed by the British commissariat, because they must otherwise have starved! With respect to the Spanish troops in Spain, he wished to ask whether the money which had been advanced by the British government, had not been employed by the Spanish government for the purpose of marching an army under general Elio to .Madrid, in order to extinguish all that existed of freedom in Spain? If that should turn out to have been the fact, it was a deed abhorrent from every English feeling, and an intentional concurrence in

Mr. Robinson said, the observations of the hon. gentleman who spoke last seemed to him to have proceeded on a mistake with regard to time. The fact was, that king Ferdinand entered Spain before the treaty of Paris was signed, even before the Convention of the 23d of April, and consequently any sums paid to him on the prin ciple of the advances from this country to the Spanish government, must have been made in the early part of the year. Sir Henry Wellesley was, undoubtedly, present with the king when he entered the kingdom. At that time it was impossible for any one to suppose that he had any intention of overturning the government. No one then knew that he intended to go to Madrid instead of proceeding to Valencia. It would not be denied, that, when the king came, he was thenceforward the

gentleman near him (Mr. W. Pole) could not surely object to a motion, the only object of which was to ascertain the nature of the pecuniary advances in Spain, by what authority they were issued, and for what purpose.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, it appeared from the extract of the letter from sir Henry Wellesley to lord Castle

government of the country, and that sir Henry Wellesley was bound to go where the king was. He had then declared no intention of either overturning the government, or of prosecuting the individuals of the cortes; but even supposing that he had expressed any such intention, our ambassador would not have been justified in not having any communication with the king because of this intention. In speak-reagh, that sir Henry had been called on ing of this advance of money, the hon. gentleman had made use of the words, paid for the pretended purpose.' Why was it a pretence? Was it intended seriously to assert, that the British government were anxious for a pretence of giving Ferdinand this money to overturn the government of Spain? This allowance of two months was also made to Austria and Prussia; four months were allowed to Russia, three months to Sweden, and four months to Portugal. Unless, therefore, the whole arrangement was one which was blameable, it would be necessary to make out a particular case to shew why Spain should be an exception.

Mr. Whitbread, in explanation, said, that when he used the word pretended,' he only meant to apply it to the Spanish government. As the Spanish troops that did enter France with lord Wellington had not advanced above twenty or thirty leagues beyond their own frontiers, while the great body of them remained in Spain, he saw no reason why the same allowance should be made for the return of their troops as was made for the return of a large Prussian army, who were at a considerable distance from their own country. He believed that the fact also was, that no part of this money was applied to the purposes of their return, as that was provided for by a separate charge on our commissariat.

by the Spanish government for a continuation of the allowance; and that he, not knowing how to act upon the occasion, had given an immediate payment of 100,000l., referring to his own government for instructions on the subject. No express subsidiary treaty was entered into with the government of Spain, because it was impossible to depend on that government furnishing the stipulated force; and the House therefore always granted the money to be employed under the direction of the British ambassador and commander of the forces, in such a way as the troops furnished should seem to require. Had even the whole of the Spanish forces been within Spain at the time of the peace, considering the ravaged and desolate state in which Spain then was, it would have been improper to have immediately discontinued the allowance, and a shorter period than that taken could not with any propriety have been fixed.

He would take that opportunity of furnishing the House with the explanation he had promised them regarding the arrest of the two Spanish gentlemen in Gibraltar. On the 16th of May, 1814, sir James Duff, the consul for the British government at Cadiz, wrote to general Smith, the governor of Gibraltar, that four Spanish subjects who had written atrocious libels, were about to take refuge in Gibraltar; that one of them had written a libel Mr. Ponsonby was not sure that he rightly against the conduct of the British troops understood the subject. He should be at the siege of St. Sebastian, and was glad to know what was the nature of those therefore an improper person to be sheladvances made to the Spanish government tered in a British garrison, and he trusted before the date of the dispatch from lord that they would be given up to the SpaCastlereagh? It was strange that the same nish government. On inquiry it amount should be paid to Spain for with- found that two of the persons described drawing a small body of troops from a had been already taken up, having come small distance, as was given for the re- into the garrison under fictitious names. moval of a large body from a great dis- General Smith had accordingly given up tance. He hoped that the papers would these men. He would state, not by way explain all this; at present it seemed alto- of excuse or justification of this step, but gether to be a very ill-understood subject. as an extenuation of it, that it had been a The right hon. the Chancellor of the Ex-recognized practice at Gibraltar to give up chequer seemed disposed to furnish the to the Spanish government persons acnecessary information, and the right hon. cused of criminal offences. If this were

was

the possession of a foreign power, and | persons of a similar description were not given up at our requisition? He would ask from what government, except when stipulated by special treaty, were persons accused of crimes given up when reclaimed? He had even been told, that in Gibraltar murderers had often not been delivered up on being reclaimed; and that it had been stated that they were considered as under the protection of the British law. It would not make any thing in favour of general Smith or sir James Duff, that one of these men had made use of calumnious expressions against the British forces at St. Sebastian. Libellers, when tried in this country, were often severely, and a great deal too severely punished; but persons accued of libels, flying from the persecuting vengeance of Spain, even though one of them had calumniated the English army, could not in any view of the case be considered as persons whom the governor of Gibraltar ought to have given up, and the conduct of general Smith was therefore wholly without excuse. With respect to the other of these two men, the right hon. gentleman did not know of what he was accused. They did not hear that the slightest order had been sent to sir James Duff not to repeat this conduct, general Smith had been simply told not to do so in future! These two unfortunate persons were now exposed to the vengeance of the Spanish government, in consequence of the instrumentality of two British officers, neither of whom had any right to interfere. [Hear, hear!] These two persons were in the dungeon of the Spanish government, which had been so well characterized by a gentleman, a near relation of the ambassador in this country. It was impossible to suppose that any human being in this country would countenance the wicked proceedings of the Spanish government; and yet our civil and military officers had not only not refused to deliver these men up, but had even lent themselves in aid of that government. All this, too, had been kept so secret in the colonial department, that the coadjutors of the noble lord (Bathurst) knew nothing of it from the 30th of June to this day. The letter of governor Smith should be made the foundation of some proceeding; and he hoped his hon. friend would think proper to move that copies of the correspondence between general Smith and lord Bathurst be laid on the table.

Mr. Bathurst contended, that the hon.

gentleman had proceeded further in bis animadversions than any thing in the circumstances of the case would warrant. The governor had acted in conformity to what he conceived to be the invariable custom and practice of the garrison, which was to deliver up all criminals who had taken refuge there. In cases of persons who were pursued for crimes or acts of moral turpitude, the rule was certainly a good one; but doubts might be entertained whether it ought to be extended to other instances; and whether persons, merely guilty of libels or sedition, ought to be delivered up. In this view, his Majesty's ministers had considered that the governor of Gibraltar had, in surrendering to the Spanish government the two individuals in question, violated the spirit of his instructions; and had therefore ordered him to desist from such a practice in future, in terms which marked their reprehension of his conduct.

Mr. Baring said, that on looking to the letter of lord Castlereagh, it would be found that the payment to the Spanish government could not have been made till three or four months after the 23rd of April. Lord Castlereagh's instructions were dated 30th of July, and they could not have been executed till deep in the month of August. If this payment was made after all the different troops had arrived in their different villages and districts, it could be attended only with the operation of aiding the Spanish government in the designs against its subjects. When the date of the payment was attended to, he saw no reason why our claims against the court of Spain should not have been set off against it. should consent to withdraw the first motion, contenting himself with the second and third.

He

Mr. Warre, in justification of the conduct of sir James Duff, which had been condemned by an hon. gentleman, said, that he had merely written to the governor of Gibraltar to state, that the persons who had taken refuge in the garrison were not persons whom it would be proper to allow to remain there. He had given no instructions, however, that these persons should be given up to the court of Spain. Under these circumstances, so far was he from considering sir James Duff reprehensible, that he thought his conduct was much to be commended.

Mr. Whitbread. Instead of being commended, sir James Duff should be se

209] Papers relating to the Civil List Expenditure.
verely reprimanded for the part he took,
as he could only know through the me
dium of the Spanish governor of Cadiz,
that these persons had taken refuge in
Gibraltar, whither they had been traced
for the purposes of persecution.

Mr. Warre repeated, that he had stated correctly the manner in which sir James Duff had acted, which was far from being questionable.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer concurred in the view taken of sir James Duff's conduct by the hon. gentleman who had spoken last.

Will the right hon. Mr. Whitbread. gentleman consent to give up the letter of sir James Duff, and that of lord Bathurst to general Smith ?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer. I do not think that would be advisable.

Mr. Baring then withdrew his first motion. After which the following were agreed to: 1. " That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, that he will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, extract of a dispatch from lord viscount Castlereagh to sir Henry WellesJey, dated the 30th of July 1814, together with the date of the dispatch of sir Henry Wellesley, to which the same is an 2. That there be laid before this House, an account of all monies that have been paid to the Spanish government since the restoration of king Ferdinand, and of the dates of each payment, so far as the same can be made up. 3. A statement of the amount of the sums of money at present due by the Spanish government to this country, so far as the same can be made up."

answer.

MOTION FOR PAPERS RELATING TO THE CIVIL LIST EXPENDITURE.] Mr. Tierney rose, in pursuance of his notice, to move for certain papers respecting the Civil List Expenditure, to the production of which he saw no objection. He should make his motion as a motion of course, and reserve any thing he had to say till he understood the grounds upon which opposition, if any, was given to his motion. The right hon. gentleman then moved, "That there should be laid before the House, 1. An account of all charges on the civil list, from the 10th of October 1813, to the 10th of October 1814. 2. An account of the sums applied to the civil list revenue during the same period: and 3. An account of the expenses incur(VOL. XXIX.)

Nov. 15, 1814.

the

accounts

[210 red in his Majesty's household, from the 5th of July to the 10th of October, 1814." The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that the course now pursued by the right hon. gentleman was so wholly foreign to the usual practice of the House, that he believed there was not on record a single instance in which the House had called for such accounts, except after some previous steps taken by the crown, either in the Speech at the commencement of the session, or in a subsequent message to that House. The act of parliament, which passed about ten years ago, had indeed provided, that whenever the charge should exceed a certain sum, should be submitted to parliamentary inspection. It was impossible, however, that these accounts should be made up, or the precise amount of the excess ascertained, before the current year should have elapsed. The first quarter subsequent to the last settlement, on removing the restrictions from the Prince Regent's authority, expired in April; and the annual accounts had, of course, since closed, on the 5th day of that month. He knew no reason, nor could he divine what grounds the right hon. gentleman was prepared to state, for now departing from what had been the unvaried and constant practice of the House in reference to this subject. It was not for him to set forth the public inconvenience and delay that must result from the establishment of a different rule: it was for the right hon. gentleman who proposed the deviation, to convince the House of the advantages to be derived from it.

Mr. Tierney said, he had not the slightest objection to state to the House the reasons which had induced him to reCommend this proceeding to them. In the first place, he must remark, that the practice alluded to was a practice dictated by no general rule or standing order, and which had, therefore, grown up, because it bad never been before discovered to be invenient. Now he could easily conceive, that it was a very proper and convenient practice to be pursued, when there happened to be no excess of expenditure on the civil list for forty or fifty years together: but when the case had been so lamentably altered of late years, when the civil list had broken through every attempt to guard it against confusion, and when it had become a mere mockery to call it an agreement between parliament and the crown, was he to be precluded

(P)